The Jennifer Kamara Podcast

Matt Serel: when I was on a work trip by myself and Becky, who's my wife now, my girlfriend at the time, um, knew about what was going on with me, got nervous when I didn't answer my phone in the morning, didn't know where I was staying, so she had actually, Adam, who I mentioned before, break into my email to find out where I was staying.

Call the hotel. They couldn't wake me up, so she told 'em to call e m s and when they got there, I had

Track 1: all right everyone. So excited to have Matt Sill with us today. He is based, we were just chatting before we hit record, uh, upstate New York and Westchester. He has a wife and two young kiddos as well as a dog, and I understand that you like to go on an annual camping trip with. This, this pop, and hopefully soon bring the kids along.

Matt is 10 years sober, and we'll talk more about that as pertains to the company he's building today, which is super interesting. Previously he founded an electronic health record company for behavioral health providers called acupoint. He founded this his senior year of college, and . We sold it at the end of 2017.

And these days, he's the co-founder and c e O of UR accountable. They help people sustain addiction recovery using technology, peer recovery coaching and toxicology monitoring in an affordable way. It's born out of Matthew and his co-founder aj, who's a therapist.

Their personal experience getting sober. It has grown to reach thousands of folks who are recovering, self-funded, self-described as a lean, mean recovery sustaining machine. Heck yeah. Over a million, dollars in revenues. We're so happy to have you. Welcome Matt

Matt Serel: Thanks for having me. Um, ,the only correction I'll make is Westchester is definitely not upstate New York

Track 1: Oh yes. It's an hour and a half

north.

Matt Serel: 40 minutes north, but Yeah. Yeah. It's like 40 minutes, 45 minutes, depending on where in the city you are. But, um, no, I say that jokingly just 'cause uh, I also grew up on Long Island, which is,

uh, east of the city.

And, uh, it's just funny for, uh, you know, upstate New York's like Buffalo. It's like the

Track 1: Is there a, more appropriate term for it?

Matt Serel: Westchester. It's just suburb,

but, and I

was,

Track 1: the, the Northern

suburbs

Matt Serel: Northern suburbs

There you go. I like that. So, um,

Track 1: okay.

Matt Serel: The, so how did we end up here? So, I grew up on Long Island. Like I said, my wife, who I met in college, um, grew up in Westchester and people in Westchester generally think they're better than people from Long Island. Um, which like, I don't disagree with. Um, I had to say for my wife and one of my wedding vows was that we wouldn't move to Long Island, um, which was somewhat awkward 'cause half of their room was from Long Island. But I've stuck to that vow. Um, I'm like having stuck to the vow of making the bed every morning. So like that in 50%, but it's okay. We're a good team.

Track 1: That's awesome. It's also nice to have family around with kids.

Matt Serel: Sure. A hundred percent. Yeah. Becky's, uh, parents live in White Plains, which is like 10, 15 minutes away and it's a huge help.

Track 1: How often do you

make it down to the city?

Matt Serel: Um, so even office there, but I'd say like realistically, I'd probably make it down twice a month.

Track 1: Okay.

Okay. By

train? You train or you, you ride or you car ride. Okay. Okay. All right, cool. Well, let's segue. Matt, thanks for the correction again. I shall not be making that mistake again. Uh,

who is Matt today? In your own words, I always wanna ask to not assume. How would you like to describe yourself?

Matt Serel: Um, I would describe myself as a recovering addict. Um, I. A father and also a partner to my wife, and then also somebody who just like really likes to build things. Um,

Track 1: Amazing.

Matt Serel: yeah, that, that's what I've learned throughout the past, like 10 years that, uh, I'm most happy when I'm building something from zero. Just, uh, you know, watching like a vision come alive.

Track 1: Yeah, and I wanna dig more into that, the building things. I think it's a very common theme for entrepreneurs just feeling like not really themselves until, unless they're building something I can resonate. And I'm so curious. What are some of these formative moments or experiences growing up you feel that

shaped who you are today?

Matt Serel: Yeah. Um, so my, my, like my dad and I'm pretty sure my grandfather. Actually on both sides were entrepreneurs. So that's like kind of my grand, my grandfather's passed before I was born, unfortunately. But, um, my father's still around and, you know, he's always been an entrepreneur and doing his own thing. So that was just kind of the path that I was brought up with and seeing model. Um, and it's, I just never really saw like another option. Like I, I started like my first company when I was 14 doing like break fix technology support. That became acupoint in college. And then now I'm doing UR accountable. And, uh, in the process I've had two like actual jobs and

Track 1: Mm-hmm.

Matt Serel: I hated them both, I guess Actually three

Track 1: what, what were they Tell me.

Matt Serel: So first one was when I was like around 14. I worked at a rock climbing gym.

Track 1: Okay.

Matt Serel: I love anything so much lately. Um, but. I, I remember like part of the job was, which I'm not sure it was legal looking back on it, but they wouldn't pay you until you had like, worked a certain number of hours to like as training got like a quarter of the way through that and you're just like, I'm done with this.

It's ridiculous. Um, and then the uh, job I had was an internship when I was in college, um, at a company called Air Products. So I went to college at Lehigh. Air Products is right there. And it was, it was cool. It was great. But, um, I had, like, I worked on this project, it worked really well. And then I had a, went to a meeting, um, maybe I shouldn't have named off the company, and the, my, like boss at the time basically took credit for all my work and I was like, this is horrible. Like, it felt so bad. Um, and. That, that those were my two experiences, like early on, working somewhere else and just knew that that's like not what made me happy.

Track 1: What was it about the rock? Climbing place that you didn't enjoy. The second example that makes I, I hear you on that.

Matt Serel: Um, I didn't feel like there was the opportunity to get, um, I think what it comes down to is a, I'm, I'm not great at necessarily like taking instruction, um, which

can be, I guess good and bad. Um, I, I, I kind of like to figure things out, do it my own way. There was like no creativity there. I was there to like do a job and that was kind of the end of it. Um, and the like, um, input to like potential reward. Piece wasn't really there. Like I could do a mediocre job or I could do an awesome job and like generally it'll

come out the same way, which just like didn't feel good to me or natural given like my

Track 1: Sounds like you wanted to have that pick your, the impact that you're having, um,

be outsized almost.

Matt Serel: Sure. And actually like what I learned later on, after selling Acupoint and um, working with the company that acquired us. I am actually far more anxious having a boss than just being responsible for like an entity on my own. Um,

Track 1: what is, what is it about having a boss that drives up the anxiety for you?

Matt Serel: I I, I think it's just like the feeling of being judged, which seems so silly 'cause like when you're, especially when you're bootstrapping a company like I do, it's like, like you, like whether you like get paid that month is dependent on how you're doing, especially when you're growing something. And a, a job in theory is like a lot safer and a lot lower risk, but for whatever reason, the external kind of eyes on um, really ratcheted up my anxiety in general.

Track 1: I'm hearing and feel free to say, no, actually this doesn't resonate. It's almost as if you like kind of playing your own game where you're building your company. You're dealing with the market. The market needs to respond to whatever product you're delivering.

Customers need to like it. There needs to be a need, but you can figure that out in your own way versus at a company, it's more structured. It's maybe a little bit more bureaucratic than game is preset. And needing to conform to playing by those rules might feel

a little restrictive.

Matt Serel: Yeah, I, I think it's that. And then also a lot of times with like a larger entity or a company that you're, you're forecasting a plan and then like, at least for me, if things don't go exactly to plan when the plan's like laid out and held accountable to it, uh, that's like a lot of pressure for me. Whereas, like when I'm running my own startup, I, of course I have a budget and I plan, but I'm ultimately accountable to myself. Um, so I, there's, there's probably a lot more therapy that I can do to dive deeper through that. But that's generally how it, how it feels when it comes out.

Track 1: Yeah, no, I, I always think that topic is so interesting because it does feel like there're to overgeneralize, obviously the world is not this simple, humans are not that simple. But it feels like there are folks who prefer having a job where they work for someone else and folks who prefer building their own thing from scratch and building something new.

Uh, and it's, it's always interesting for me to see what . What compels folks to prefer one or the other, and what are the character traits? Uh, okay. So speak. Thank you. So thanks for sharing and, and indulging me in that.

Speaking of Acupoint, and you started this, there was a different version of the company, but at 14 years old, which became acupoint.

I'm curious to, to learn a little bit more about that journey, especially because I'm pretty sure some of those lessons you ended up translating into

you are accountable and what you're building today.

Matt Serel: Sure. Yeah. So, um, the first company was called Pure Code Consulting. Um, and I founded that with my high school friend, Adam Moki, who I'm still

close with. Um, Basically it was going to small businesses in the area. We grew up setting up their networks, that type of thing, fixing issues when they had it. And how it transformed into Acupoint is one of our clients base in a different space than Acupoint.

Ended up selling into, basically asked us to build him an electronic health record platform to help him with his compliance needs mostly. Um, and I built that for him my senior year in college.

Track 1: Mm-hmm.

Matt Serel: uh, went back to him and said, you know, why don't you like recoup some of your investment in paying this?

And like, let's actually build this, you know, and sell it to other companies. Um, and at the time, so when I graduated college, I actually enrolled in law school at night.

Track 1: Can I pause you, Matt? What compelled you to go back to this guy and tell him, Hey, why you are interested in recouping some of your investment and having us build

this out for other companies?

Because not everyone would do that.

Matt Serel: I think I knew that like with Pure Code, that was a future where I was gonna continue to sell my time.

Track 1: Mm-hmm.

Matt Serel: Um, and there's only so much that like I can scale. Um, so I knew that that wasn't gonna be a long-term play for me. And selling electronic health fire platform is SaaS. You get a lot more leverage. So that was kind of my thought around it. And I also I went to law school at night because my parents wanted me to go to law school at night. Um, and I also again, that's another place where I'm selling my time. So this seemed as my, like, way out to make me happy and everybody else around me happy also. So it was kind of all those things coming together. Um, and as is pretty much always the case, like the, like what action you take at the time. Generally doesn't play out the way that you think it will in the future. Um,

so it's just uh, for me like a reminder of like, just like always taking the next right action and like letting go of the

Track 1: It's almost like take the next step. You're gonna discover so much more and your way of thinking, will evolve and new opportunities are always available with each next step you take. Um, how did that go and what are some of the lessons that you learned

and took from that as an entrepreneur?

Matt Serel: Yeah. Um, what lessons did I take? Um, I'll say first and foremost that my partner for Accu Point, Joe, It was like caught me so much. It was amazing to work with. Um, in hindsight, um, I probably wouldn't have given up 50% of the company Um,

Track 1: Who was Joe?

Matt Serel: so Joe was the person, so he owned a home care company and also basically a company that serves people with traumatic brain injury. It's like, it's an amazing company, amazing mission. It's called, uh, R e Ss, uh, home Care and r e ss t b i services on Long Island. I built the platform for him, um, and he paid me for it. Then I went

back

Track 1: he was your first

customer and then investor?

Matt Serel: Yeah, yeah. Well, we we didn't take any investment. We bootstrapped it, but we signed on, he had a line of credit from his other business and I co-signed on it with the

debt on the business.

Um, and given I was like the active member and he was more passive and so valuable, you know, maybe like 50 50 Split wasn't the right. Split at the time, but it worked out wonderfully for everyone, so I can't really complain. Um, so, so that would be my, I guess, first learning. Um, and sorry, what, what, what was the entire question again?

Sorry about that.

Track 1: I, I was just curious what you feel you learned from Acupoint that was then

helped you to build your

Matt Serel: Sure. Yeah. So I would say, was a company that was like built by like really gut. I also wasn't healthy when I started building it, which is what led to accountable. I had like a really bad opioid addiction, which, um,

Track 1: Mm-hmm. , which we'll get into shortly.

Matt Serel: um, at least in the beginning. But, um, One thing I've learned from, I guess, few things I've learned from Acupoint is, one is that no matter what your plan is for starting a company, generally it'll like rhyme with what the company ends up doing, but won't be the same. 'cause the market will dictate like what the actual right solution is

Um, the other is that it's, you know, a lot of times when people talk about startups or investing, they show these pretty graphs with like, you know, you know, exponential, up to the right curve. And the reality is that there are ups and downs. Um, and like emotional fortitude and the ability, and a lot of this is like credit to like sobriety also to like, say like, this doesn't feel good right now, but this will pass. And to keep pushing through is like the most important thing in being a founder of a company. Um,

Track 1: Yeah,

Matt Serel: it's

most people that say they wanna start a company, what ends up happening is they give up too early, um, before like the magic happens.

Track 1: Yeah. Is it Sam Altman that says that, people are not willing to invest the time that it takes to actually build a company? And lots of, reasons for that,

I wanna invite you to share with us your story because I think . This led to you building you accountable, just your story with addiction and your recovery process.

Matt Serel: Yeah. It's, it's funny, it's kinda like a chicken and the egg thing. It's like, did I have this surgery 'cause I really wanted opioids or did I need the surgery and then got opioids and I kind of kept going the path from there.

Track 1: interesting.

Matt Serel: Um, but high level, um, I'll say that I, I tried opioids once in college and I, that was the best thing I've ever done. Um, went back to buy more for my friend, and my friend refused to sell it to me 'cause he knew me better than I knew myself. I was like, all right, yeah, you're probably right. Um, not, not a good idea for me. Um, and then basically after, after college, like while I was in law school, I had a few cases where I had like tooth thing and got prescribed Vicodin, and then my ankle was hurting me and I had a surgery that didn't go well. Um, and I was actually in like a lot of pain for a year. And rather than, of fault the doctor for this rather than calling me in. The doctor's office just kept like literally through the mail sending me prescriptions of Vicodin, like I would get

Track 1: Mm-hmm.

Matt Serel: box and Then go fill them. Did that for about a year.

Then ended up having a second surgery where I got prescribed more. And probably from December, 2012 when I had the second surgery to I guess October, 2013 when I overdosed, just had like, uh, everything in my life just went to hell really quickly. Um, I. And for me, I knew that like, it was, it was becoming a problem when I started like taking the pain pills throughout the day. Um, like I always had a, I was always like a work hard party, hard type person and prided myself on that. But like, once that kind of barrier was broken, I knew like internally that like I was in real trouble.

Track 1: Mm-hmm.

Matt Serel: Um, And, but like where, like the inside building comes, and this is so much of it, like addiction treatment is, at first I thought my problem was just like, like pain pills. And I was like, I just need to get off these pills. And I tried, I don't need to get into the whole thing, but I tried like every which way to do it myself. Um, and the reality is that I couldn't stop that until I stopped everything. Um, and. um, the overdose happened when I was on a work trip by myself and Becky, who's my wife now, my girlfriend at the time, um, knew about what was going on with me, got nervous when I didn't answer my phone in the morning, didn't know where I was staying, so she had actually, Adam, who I mentioned before, break into my email to find out where I was staying.

Call the hotel. They couldn't wake me up, so she told 'em to call e m s and when they got there, I had aspirated in my sleep, so I had thrown up and inhale it. Um, so I owe two levels at 50% and they said I would've been dead within 10 to 15 minutes and didn't know if I was gonna be brain damaged. Don't think I am, you know, you can let me know what you think at the end of this. And, uh, went to treatment from after being in the I C U for a week. Went to treatment from there and we've been sober since.

Track 1: Wow. I feel like Becky's your guardian angel Oh my goodness. And what a, gift does she get to share your life with her too, to this day?

Matt Serel: Yeah. Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky. Um, yeah.

Track 1: I am curious, Matt, because we've seen this so much in the media these days. There's so many documentaries coming out on opioid addiction and just how can we handle this better as a community healthcare system, just individuals who know other individuals. It sounds like there were a couple of points in your story where

We can learn about intervening. It sounds like the first point, these are just what I was hearing as you were describing, and let me know how you would revise what I share. Right now. I heard something about, okay, the first time that you actually tried opioids. And I'm wondering whether that's an intervention point, whether we can educate folks more on, Hey, this is some of the impact implication and what you would do there.

A second point was . Obviously when you had your toothache, and you got prescribed and then after your first ankle surgery and you mentioned the doctors didn't call you in and they just sent you prescriptions for you to go get 'em, and obviously that's just a clear point in which you could have been more closely monitored and maybe.

We could have explored other options. I'm not a medical professional, so I don't, I don't wanna veer into this territory. I don't know too much of what I'm talking about. And then also, like with your girlfriend, the conversations after in between 2012 October and then when the overdose happened in 2013.

what are your thoughts here on just lessons learned and, how, for anyone listening who knows, someone going through this, how they can show up, how, how could we show up for

other folks?

Matt Serel: Yeah. Um, so I think. We've come a long way. Um, like the stigma around addiction, at least I feel is a lot less, it's talking a lot more. Um,

Track 1: That and mental health, it's, thank goodness that we're evolving as a society in this

Matt Serel: totally.

Track 1: regard.

Matt Serel: all, all of that. Um, so I think that's all great. Um, I think also like opioid prescriptions are way down. Um, .I'm not a medical profession, but I, I get a little nervous about the amphetamine prescriptions that are not seeming to tap down. Um, and as far as early, you know, earlier intervention, my understanding, I mean, I'm not a medical professional either. I'm just, I'm a sober guy. Um, is like education works. Um, at least in certain cases. I know for me, when there was educational things earlier on, I wasn't I wasn't in, I didn't have the insight to listen, like, to truly hear it. Um, but I think with targeted messaging, especially seeing what's happening with like the opioid epidemic and all opioid epidemic and all the people like passing away today on needly, um, like that's a big part. Um, as far as like as a family member, if you're a family member or somebody that you know is struggling with addiction, which is, you know, not al you don't always know, I was pretty good at hiding it. Um, there's, uh, a methodology called craft, um, that I definitely encourage you to look up and like how to help, like, build an insight in a loved one that's struggling with addiction. 'cause the reality is, is no matter how much, and this is in like our current, my current role today, if you are accountable, no matter how much I can see, um, like what's happening with a person, like, nothing will change unless they see it for themselves. So really a lot of. What we do is like helping build insight, continuing to build insight so people can take actions to support their own recovery. Um, so for me that that's like the biggest thing you can do is be supportive but not enabling, which is really, really hard.

Track 1: In terms of family members, specifically in your relationship with Becky, what made you comfortable sharing with her

2013?

Matt Serel: Well, you're, you're, you're, assuming I was comfortable sharing with her and I wasn't. I hid it. Um, I got caught because she caught me texting my dealer. Um, and I tried to convince her that it was normal, that I texted a drug dealer did my best to hide it. Uh, I think she, she knew something was up. Um, I think if you asked her, she would say she attributed a lot of what was happening to a, like my ankle pain, which was like a real thing, but also be like other stressors that I had like in my life.

Plus Acupoint, um, like founding a company is stressful on its own.

And, uh, it didn't come out really until she like caught me texting my dealer on like the way back from a trip with friends.

Track 1: Mm-hmm.

Matt Serel: and at that point, you know, she got me to go to a psychiatrist who told me to stop drinking also and stop smoking weed.

Both things that I really liked to do. And we said basically that's crazy. And he was right, obviously 'cause it ended in an overdose. So, um,

Track 1: And so you didn't stop drinking

and doing weeded at that time.

Matt Serel: No. Well, I saw, I said I would stop smoking and then was drinking, and I'd mix in other drugs that I normally wouldn't do, um, because the the drug wasn't the problem. It's like how I learned to cope, which was like the real issue. Um, plus the actual, just like addiction and disease of addiction, um, I had no coping skills to live life without. So, and, and like from a, like medical standpoint, like any substance triggers those same pathways. So like once I took something, it made me yearn for what I really knew that I wanted, which was like, I'd start smoking again, then I'd be back with, you know, pain pills. Um, so that was kind of the cycle there.

So, yeah, so I, I really didn't discuss any of this. Um, and I would say like, where Becky, I mean, Becky shined throughout, but what was really big was like after I got back from treatment, um, because what you see a lot of times is people go to treatment for 30 days. They do great. 'cause they're separated from their environment.

They're in their own little bubble. They like, literally you're institutionalized. You can't leave. Right? And then they go back home to everything that, you know, their life, their stressors. Like nobody goes into treatment winning. So like generally you come back to a mess that like you have to clean up over time and you don't have your best coping tool available anymore. Um,

so like I always tell people that my first year of recovery was the hardest year of my life. It would've been much easier to go back to use than kind of work through everything that I had to clean up for my addiction.

Track 1: And what helped you get

through that first year?

Matt Serel: Um, Becky being like incredibly supportive. And I don't mean that as like she was sitting there every moment like, how are you doing? Are you okay? It was, you do whatever you need to do for your recovery. I'm gonna do what's good for me. Um, and like no questions asked, like, do what you need to do. But like, if like you slip up again, like I'm gone. Um, and I knew she meant it and. She really meant like, do whatever you need to do. It wasn't the type of situation where she's like, I'm sad you're not hanging out with me because you go to i o p three days a week and you're working and then you're going to meetings. Um, she really gave me the space to take charge of my own recovery. And, uh, funny, at the time I felt like it wasn't super supportive, but it was absolutely like the right thing to do.

Track 1: Beautiful.

Anything else

Matt Serel: Um, As far as, sorry, I

Track 1: For folks who maybe know folks that are going through this that can be learning from what was helpful for you in that first year, what else

was helpful in getting you through it?

Matt Serel: Yeah. Um, well, I'd say for like family in general, the, a lot of times it can feel like the person's doing this to you. Like if they cared about you, why would they be doing this? And I think it's important to like frame that. Nobody in their right mind would want to be addicted to drugs. Right. Um, like the stuff that I put myself through to like get my fix, like wasn't fun.

Um, so like, it's truly like I was a sick person. Um, and it's important to remember that like, even though like people in addiction don't It's nasty. Um, like it's hard. It's hard on the family, it's hard on the individual, but it's not, they're not doing it to you. It's they're sick and they need help.

Track 1: Yeah.

Matt Serel: Um, for me, what really helped was a Becky giving me the space to work on my own recovery. Uh, mutual support groups were like and still are immensely helpful. Um, therapy, still in therapy, huge advocate. Um, and. Biggest thing was like, and where a lot of people get into trouble and there's part of where accountable comes into play is they do all this work that gets 'em feeling good and then because they feel good, they stop doing the work that got them there in the first place. And the reality is, just like any other chronic disease like diabetes, once you get your, like insulin levels under control, that doesn't mean you stop taking insulin and go eat a bunch of cake. you you gotta keep maintaining your recovery and

Track 1: Matt, I'm so appreciative to you for sharing the story, and again, I'm so grateful that the times are evolving and we are more open to having more of these honest conversations. I really do see you and it. It's so impressive, the journey you've been on and all the work you've put in,

and now you're helping thousands of others on their recovery journey.

So, speaking of which I wanna talk about, you are accountable. And so I know that you founded this with someone who you met during your recovery was, is that right? With AJ and he's a therapist. And tell me more about

how your accountable got started.

Matt Serel: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, we were actually both in group therapy together for three years for, you know, it was a group of people in like long-term recovery, which was like over six months at that point. Um, and yeah, we spent Three years in therapy together. I think it's the best way to meet a business partner,

Track 1: Yeah,

you really get to know the person.

Matt Serel: when we communicate very well. It's really that that's not an issue in, uh, our co-founder relationship. Um, highly recommend it. The, uh, and he went back to school to become a clinician after he got sober. He actually worked in finance prior, um, and basically after I sold Acupoint and decided to leave, The group had ended like a few years prior, so I reached back out to him and was like, Hey, really wanna do this? Um, you have the clinical expertise, um, like, wanna do this with me? And he was like, all in. So it's, uh, and it's been been amazing from there. And just like, like I mentioned before, what accountable is today isn't what we really envisioned it as in the beginning.

Track 1: Mm-hmm.

Matt Serel: We really envisioned it as, or at least I envisioned it as like something where we would meet with somebody once a month, test them once a month. It would be super low cost. Um, I just kind of like a, a check-in type thing. I think like original pricing was $99 a month and I think that was my inclination 'cause I'd been sober for so long, I forgot what it was like realistically. I, like, I knew what our target, you know, Persona was,

Track 1: Yeah.

Matt Serel: I had lost touch with it a little bit 'cause it had been a

Track 1: How, how many years post your

OD did you start it?

Matt Serel: uh, coming up on 10 years next month. So it was probably like seven and a half years.

Track 1: Oh wow. Post and congrats coming on 10 years. Okay. But so like I know that right now, I, I looked up your website. It looks super comprehensive, so it sounds like y'all are doing two group sessions a week.

You

do. Is that right or no?

Matt Serel: So, yeah, so basically our, our program is, you know, we kind of have three goals. We'll start there. So first goal is to support someone in recovery. Um, most of our clients are post-treatment, but we also work with like what you would call pre-contemplative. Like maybe a family member thinks they have a problem, therapist might think the person has an issue, um, but the person's not quite sure.

They think they can control it. So they'll work with us. And if like they get under control, awesome. If not, they agree to go to a higher level of care. Um, so we also work in that respect and also in a harm reduction lens as well. But, um, most of our clients are post-treatment. Um, they sign up on our website and they can select either coaching one, two or three times a week, depending on the level of service they want, and also what other aftercare they have set up. So like, if you're going to intensive outpatient, which is three days a week for three to four hours, like meeting with us more than once a week is too much. So we'll help tailor that based on where somebody's at. So they'll have one to three coaching sessions a week. We can monitor, um, alcohol using a Bluetooth breathalyzer. We use oral fluid drug test for drug testing. So that's the accountability part. Um, and then we also coordinate care. So it's supporting recovery, coordinating care with outside providers to keep everybody on the same page, and then they invite their family too. So helping rebuild trust and family systems are kind of the three prompts of how the program works.

Track 1: I love that you integrate the family and just have

them be more involved in the journey.

Matt Serel: Sure, yeah, it's, uh, it's really hard to get sober if everybody around you is questioning the work you're doing all the time. Um, so we act as kind of a buffer there to let family feel safe that everything's going well, but also if things, you know, somebody does slip up or has a return to use. We can advocate for the, uh, for our member and involve the family in clinical and a positive way to make sure that person's getting on track or getting the

Track 1: I imagine too, with even the language of helping, like you were just clarifying, Hey, if someone is addicted, they're not doing this to you. It's a struggle. It's a battle internally already. They're sick and they need help, and even just helping a family member or a loved one, or someone that's close, a friend, whatever, just help them with the language of how do you communicate with this person who's feeling this way and shift your perspective from they're doing this to me, to how do I help you

Matt Serel: Yeah.

Track 1: so valuable.

Matt Serel: Well, and also so every, everybody on our team's in recovery and it's,

Track 1: can empathize.

Matt Serel: and well, yes, could empathize, but also like for me, when I would go to a therapist or a doctor and they would tell me to do something and this is how I took it, other people might take it differently, but I felt like I was being, um, like talk down to like, this is what you should do as a sick individual. I can receive things much better when it's someone who is like, This is what you should do and this is how I did it and this is how it turned out for me. Um, that's a much different conversation and gives a different balance and weight than straight, you know, clinical care does. Um, so that that's where like the power of like the coaching part of accountable really comes into play.

Track 1: Yeah.

Matt Serel: you know, so much of like you say opposite of addictions connection, um, And it's hard to build that in the beginning, especially when you're a lot of times near addiction that your way of like social, like to to be social is to lubricate that or numb it with substances, so it'll like start building real sober friendships and connections is difficult,

Track 1: Amazing. I had a question on the. Online versus in-person coaching the you accountable members, many of them are in post-treatment and so also are seeing, clinicians or some sort of treatment facility in person in combination with the

group therapy that's online.

Matt Serel: Yeah, so, so we're, we're pretty clear that we're, we're not a replacement of treatment. We're an adjunctive service, so we're in addition to, so generally we won't work with someone unless they have, at the very least, a therapist. So they need a therapist and at least one family contact on the portal. Um,

Track 1: Okay.

Matt Serel: somebody could do a wellness check as an example, but also like if we're holding 'em accountable, like who are we? Like we wanna help them build trust in their family as well.

Track 1: Yeah.

Matt Serel: Um, so, you know, with that, does their therapist need to be in person? No, but they need to have some sort of clinical oversight on their, in

Track 1: Absolutely. And my question was gonna be, what is your take on online, interventions versus online and in person and how effective is just online alone? sounds like you are doing a combo, so,

Matt Serel: Yeah, I think, um, I think it depends where the person's at. Um, I've seen people get sober with just individual therapy virtually and accountable. Um, which is something that like, I know for me wouldn't have been possible. I. Um, so, you know, just like everything else in behavioral health and probably in life, uh, addiction exists on a spectrum. Um, so like for me, I needed to be institutionalized for 30 days. There was no other chance of me getting, um, sober and finding recovery. Um, but for other people that might not be what's necessary. Um, I think it's, that's why we have clinical oversight when we work with people so they can help make those judgements for what's safe for

Track 1: Very interesting. I wanna shift gears a little bit 'cause we're wrapping up. And just broaden out past businesses that you've been building, and just talk about your life in general today. And you mentioned at the start you are a father, your husband, uh, you're an entrepreneur, and

how are you designing your life

these days?

Matt?

Matt Serel: Sure. Yeah.

Track 1: is important to you? What are you prioritizing? in your life?

Matt Serel: So I'd say first and foremost what I prioritize, and this is probably like not, um, not a popular thing to say, but like I prioritize like my own self-care first. Um, because if

I.

Track 1: is a great thing to say from

my perspective

Matt Serel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, because I, I can't be of service to like anyone else if I'm not healthy. Um, especially like for, I think for anybody struggling with addiction, like the cost of letting that slip is so much dire.

It's like literally life or death for me. Um, so first thing is doing my best to take care of my own self-care. Um, so it's exercise, sleep, going to meetings. Um, et cetera. Um,

Track 1: how many hours

of sleep are you getting?

Matt Serel: so it's funny, I got a whoop recently and it's really helped my sleep hygiene. Like I'm afraid to pick up my phone in the middle of the night. So I'd say I get, like, I think last I looked at, I was averaging eight hours a night. So I'm pretty good on it. Um, sleep is important for me. I lose my mind if I don't sleep and if I don't work out, um, do some sort of exercise five to six days a week.

Track 1: do you exercise in the morning, afternoon, evening,

Matt Serel: morning. Um, if I don't do it in the morning, generally it doesn't happen. So like try and do it. First thing today my exercise was I took my dog on a hike 'cause it's finally sunny out after four days of raining work. Um, and uh, so exercise in the morning. And then, um, the other thing that I did with this company that was different in the past is I didn't want to travel anymore. Um, before I left Therapy Brands, I left in May, but. Between, uh, January and March when Covid hit, I had traveled for three days a week every single week that month with like, I guess like a six month old at home and I was miserable. Um, so what I did here, which was probably a little earlier from like a lean perspective than like I would've normally is I hire Jason, who's our head of business development and partnerships, and he greatly does all that traveling for me. Um, so I'm.

Track 1: and I heard, I heard your sales

three x after that too.

Matt Serel: It did. It did I? Uh, well, so that was, so it, yeah. Both times. So Acupoint, I hired a salesperson way too late and saw my sales three X and hired Jason again, and our growth immediately picked up. So I've also learned, I think I'm a great salesperson, but maybe I'm not so great. I don't know. Um,

Track 1: It's also about figuring out, okay, what is our sales process? And then you can hand it over to someone who can then scale that,

so,

Matt Serel: Totally. So, but no, Jason's been a huge help and has like enabled me to, I'm home every day when my kids come home from school, Um, there in the mornings. Um, like all of that wouldn't have been possible if a, we were an office-based company or b if I was still traveling all the time. And like that's been one of like the huge benefits of Covid. Um, I would've also never built a remote company before Covid. Um, I was pretty old school and I thought that everybody needed to be in the office to be productive and, um,

Track 1: Yeah.

Matt Serel: the team at accountable is just like, it's like the most fun place I've ever worked. It's just awesome.

Track 1: Do you get to see each other in person? Once every,

I don't know,

quarter a month.

Matt Serel: So I brought the whole team out to Utah in July and that was the first time I met in sson and it was, it was so much fun.

Um, So we'll probably do that yearly. It

Track 1: It's fascinating how much we've unlocked with Covid in terms of remote work and just the capabilities we've unlocked. I think there's still like you wanna do some sort of combo. Some people like it still, but like you can unlock so much more. And then on the flexibility piece, that to me is one of the biggest gifts, just being able to.

Be with your family and be more present as a dad, like to, with these small moments as your kids are growing up and with your partner, and be able to work with folks from all around the

world and tap into the talent.

Matt Serel: Yeah. And I would say like on the flexibility things, I think this is like a, a, uh, a misnomer A lot of times when people think about founding a new company, that they'll have so much flexibility. Um,

the reality is, I, I'm, yeah, I'm

super.

Track 1: People think when you found

a new company you'll have flexibility.

Matt Serel: They don't wanna have a boss, like, you know, all the, you could pick when you work, that type of thing. And the reality is is a, I'm just like, I'm very structured, like I am working nine to five at minimum every day. Like I just like to have that time. Um, but the reality is, I, you trade like being able to like to having a nine to five to not picky when you work.

'cause like I'm always thinking about accountable. So I'm pretty much always working. It's something that I, I try and be conscious of to like try and turn it off because that's also not healthy. Um, but it's also like I love what we do and I'm excited about it. And uh,

so it's a lot of people, you know, say that like, they, like get Sunday scaries or dread the work week. I am so excited to like wake up and do this every morning 'cause um, I've truly found like, One thing I've heard is the perfect, like job or occupation is a mix between what you love, what you'll get paid for and what you're good at. And, uh, like accountable is that for me. So it's just, uh, it's just a dream to work on every day.

Track 1: What a gift and what a fun note to end as well, Matt, so happy for you and again, tremendous impact You're having. Everyone check out, you are accountable. If you know someone that could use it, check out the craft. Method as well. Matt, this was lovely. Thanks so much for coming on.

Matt Serel: Thank you.​