The Jennifer Kamara Podcast

Meg: I'm working with one of the best, smartest people in Hollywood, Jodi Foster.

But there came a day I had to take her to the commissary and over hotdogs and french fries. Say, I think I'm, I think I'm done. I think I'm gonna do it. I think I've always wanted to be a writer and if, if I don't do it now I'm gonna be 80 and wonder what if, and I quit the best job in the business

Jennifer: Hi J. Crew. Happy Women's Week. We've got an amazing guest to celebrate Women's Day with today. She's a rockstar writer. We all know her as the writer and Academy Award nominee for best original screenplay for Inside Out Meg's also written My Father's Dragon, which we can find on Netflix, the Good Dinosaur. The story for Captain Marvel. She's also directed and produced. One of her passions is fostering the next generation of writers, and so these days we can find her as the host of the Screenwriting Life Podcasts alongside Lauren McKenna, where they get into exactly what the day-to-day of a writer is, the process, et cetera.

Meg tells me about what it was like stepping away from that career where she was an exec for about 10 years to pursue her dreams of becoming a screenwriter.

She also tells me about some of the exciting things she's working on and what we have to look forward to. All you inside Out fans, stay tuned. Exciting stuff coming our way. Meg's an amazing human and this was such an inspiring conversation. Thanks for coming on Meg, and enjoy y'all.

Happy Women's Day.

Jennifer: Hi Meg.

Meg: Hi.

Jennifer: We usually start with everyone by asking them if they brought something that makes them comfortable on the podcast. I'm usually taking this from home in my living room, which makes me comfortable, but today I have a warm cup of coffee next to me.

How about you? Anything?

Meg: Well, um, I'm, I've got a blanket around me today because it's so cold here in LA and we're such woos. Um, but I love blankets and I also always have a cup of tea nearby, uh, any season. I mean, if I'm super stressed, honestly, my comfort. It's like a thin mint Girl

Jennifer: Ooh,

Meg: Um, which isn't the healthiest thing.

And I try to, you know, to be good about it. But, um, and I'd say the other thing, and I don't know if it gives me comfort as much as inspiration, is that behind, uh, this camera here on my desk, I have all kinds of little figures that I've collected. Some since I was a kid, some since yesterday. Um, just things to inspire me and, uh, uh, like for example, I have this warrior person. She reminds me, uh, that it, you know, to stay in the fight. And I have, I have little figures, different figures. Um, So there's tons and tons of them, and they're always here in front of my writing. Uh, just something I can see and remind myself.

Jennifer: I actually love that so much. So I coach folks as an executive coach, and I like to, encourage folks to have some sort of totem or item that reminds them of, for instance, their inner leader. Like mine, that I summon for inspiration is a lion ness. She's fierce, she's protective of her family.

She's sure. What does the warrior mean for you?

Meg: Yeah, I have an image too that I have on my desktop. Um, I don't know where it came from. It could be a still from a movie for all I know, but it's a woman on a horseback, completely painted and white with her spear. And, um, you know, I do think, I think of warrior, not so much in terms of battle, but in terms of bravery, in terms of being present, being, um, committed being, um, A warrior.

Like I don't, that is the word, right? I don't, I just is so part of the creative artistic life. Um, it doesn't mean you're always having to be that. Of course there's moments to be soft and retreat and, but I do, I do definitely keep her with me cuz I do think that women are not enculturated to. Warriors we're inculturated to service, which is a sacred and wonderful thing, but it's not all we are.

And certainly going after your dreams or the artistic life, um, can't be just about service because you are the conduit. So, um, I think it takes a certain amount of boundaries and fight.

Jennifer: totally. That word brave stuck out which to me sounds like keeping ongoing, even when you're scared, knowing what the downsides could be, but keeping marching on,

Meg: Yeah, I mean, definitely, um, to be an artist or a creator or a manifestor in any. Means failure, it means setbacks. It means, uh, a kind of, uh, transformation of learning yourself, finding your blind spots. And you know, the only difference I find in is the people who keep going , uh, and take it. I'm not gonna say in stride.

I don't know anybody who's human who takes failure in stride, but at least can see it as there is a silver lining at the very least, if not a good thing that you needed to know. , there's something to learn. It's a, it's, it's part of the creative process. On my podcast, the screenwriting life, we talk about lava and that it's so much part of creation is stepping into what can feel like fire, being vulnerable.

And that's what's so interesting, right? Because I'm talking about being a warrior, but so much of it is also the warrior has to be there so you can be vulnerable so that you can open. To the life you want or the story you're telling. Um, so it is a very kind of yin yang, uh, experience

Jennifer: What a great way to get us started. Meg, we all know that you are an amazing teacher of screenwriting. I've listened to your podcast and I wanna take some of the lessons I've learned from you and get to know a little bit about your story, which there are some failures, there are some setbacks, there are some pivots that you've made and we can share with the audience here today.

Let's take it all the way back to Little Meg growing up in Warren, Ohio. And let's imagine someone from Pixar is asking you to write a story about her. So in your own words what did Little Meg want? What was her conflict?

Meg: Well, um, I was, I've been a storyteller since I could hold a pencil in my hand. My mom kept a story of that. Literally the words are, you know, each letter is two inches big because I'm, I'm, I'm writing in such a child's hand. Um, but there's also, within those stories at a very young age, a lot of fear and a lot of, um, Questioning.

Um, I think and a lot of disappearing. You know, the very first story I ever wrote was about, I went on a plane trip, which of course I'd never been on a plane in my life. And, um, and I sat on the seat and fell in a hole and disappeared. And you know, nowadays if a child handed you that story, you'd be like, huh, we better ask about this.

Why do you feel like you needed to disappear back then? Yeah, it was kind of like, look, you wrote a story, . There was no kind of deeper. And to be fair to my mother, she had five children. all within a year and a half of each other. It was a flurry full household. And she was, you know, she was caught in that generation of women who had to be liberated and that somehow meant she had no help cuz she got moved away from her mother and her aunts.

And, um, she was kind of caught between the 1950s and the 19. Seventies. Um, but I grew up in a house full of, of brothers and sisters in which I think my brain learned the way to survive it was to disappear. And I did that by being an A student. I did that by reading books. Now they can, I, I've heard people talk about that.

Um, a lot of book reading can be a trauma response. Um, . I think what I wanted was to appear, but to survive, I had to disappear. And what's interesting about that to me as an adult is as a teacher, I often helping people with their stories started to understand that whatever belief they had as a child, that survival mechanism that kept them alive, even just psychologically, uh, creatively, however, it did its job, right?

So mine was to d. And by doing that I read a lot. I became a storyteller. I went deep into my imagination. Great, great things came from that survival instinct. But often as an adult, that same survival instinct will now kill you.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Meg: it'll kill that dream. So as an example, my belief to disappear, well, I wanna be a writer, uh, you know, that's the complete opposite.

So that survival instinct rises up so strong, right? Every time. And uh, what do I have learned to do with it? Um, cuz you can't, it is trying to protect you. It's not some evil part of you. It's not some flaw. It's a survival instinct. It's, it really does want to protect you. So I will say to it, thank you very much.

Um, I hear you, but I'm not gonna die. So let's just take a seat and see. I'm not gonna die. I'm gonna live. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna live bigger and more wider and, and more, with more layers and complexity than you at that younger part of me could ever imagine. You know, it never goes away, but it does start to loosens it, its grip cuz it starts to trust, oh look, she didn't die.

I mean, that's how the brain learns, right? It can only know what it knows. It only can learn. It can only know through experience. Um, which is also why you have to risk and try things to teach the brain. Um, No, you're wrong. That isn't what's gonna happen. What's gonna happen is you're gonna fly. Um, so I think Little Meg, um, had a wonderful childhood, but learned some habits that now as an adult to become a creator and an artist and be seen.

Um, it becomes a bit of a struggle.

Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. And I love what you were saying about it wants to protect you. This voice, little Meg, that scared maybe little girl who wanted to disappear because that's the way to survive, is to not be a source of trouble or whatnot in this maybe larger family where there's lots of things going on. It's beautiful that you know that she wants to protect you and I think also like thanking her, which is what you're doing.

The other technique that works for me is even giving it a job to do so it's busy and

can

Meg: I've heard that. Yes. Give it a job. It direct its energy towards something positive. Um, yeah, and it's funny cuz in my brain it doesn't feel like a little curl, it feels ancient.

Right. You know, it feels like ancient wisdom even though it's not necessarily all the time. Um, But what, however people can, um, I did an exercise once that somebody gave me, the wisest person I know gave me around this, which was, um, to sit in a chair and think of somebody I love unconditionally, which for me, Amelia became my sister.

Um, and send her love. Super easy to do because I love her unconditionally. And I did that every day for five days. And then on the sixth, Change the image to your younger self. And now send her unconditional love. And it was so hard, , I was shocked how hard it was, you know, because that voice can also inside that to protect you, can make you so small, you know?

Um, and, and be so judgmental. But I think that in my business, So many artists, um, do have this at their center. Um, and I think we think, oh, well there must be some of these artists who are so big and successful were just born, you know, talented. They were like Gods who landed. Um, but I've. I've now done this long enough and met enough of them, but I'm like, Nope, everybody, everybody's human.

Everybody's doubting, everybody's write te everybody's writing terrible first drafts. Um, everybody's gotta be that brave person to walk into their own lava. Um, and, and it does help to see that more as a community, um, of people, of artists than, um, as a competi.

Jennifer: So then Meg, how did you, because we talked about the fact that you need to do the actions to rewire your brain to understand that, you know what, I'm not gonna die. This isn't, this may feel scary, but we are fully resourceful and whole, and we can push through it and achieve amazing things.

What were some of those learning opportunities for you growing up?

Meg: I think I just intuitively had a, a little bit of a push in me. Um, uh, even though I perceive myself as not strong as a kid, I think if I were to meet her, I'd be a little bit shocked. Um, now listen, women are taught to do it in passive aggressive ways. Um, women are taught to not do it directly, which I think is super dangerous when you're an adult in the workplace.

I've, I, some, some of the hardest people I've ever had to work with were women because of this passive aggressive behavior, which I have empathy for because it's how we all learn to survive and to. Beak our truth. Um, and yet it's really not that helpful because it's not direct. And so when it's coming at you, you don't kind of understand what's happening.

So as a child, I think I was pretty passive aggressive. I would own, I was a picky eater. I look back and I'm like, wow, what was, I was kind of like, um, you can't tell me what to digest. You know? I drove my father bonkers. I did what, what, what, what does a child have control over? Really? Um, uh, a as a, as an adult, it became, um, really listening to my intuition, um, to try to, and I have to do this all the time still.

I'll be in a note session at Pixar and I will suddenly realize, My center has gone out of myself. I'm, I'm more worried about what they all think and think of me of the story. It's all getting so personal that my center has moved into them versus keeping my center in myself. And I think that that's something, I have an intuition of that center in myself.

Um, and I've had to learn to listen to it. You know, it can be as easy as feel your feet right now, feel your feet to get grounded back into your body. Um, but when I was in, I started in advertising and I remember interviewing for a job. And it was to move up. It was a big, it was a big job. And on the outside I'm doing the whole, I, you know, all the reasons they should give me this job.

And I'm probably killing it, right, because I'm performer. Um, but inside I just felt this overwhelming tidal wave rise up in me of, please don't give me this job. Please don't give me this job. And I thought, oh wait. The power, my power center is not them giving me the job or not. I don't want the job. I don't want it.

And so many women, because we've been trained to be passive aggressive, because we've been trained to be service oriented, we're really good at knowing what everybody else wants and worrying about what other people think of us. But to be an artist and to write a story, you have to know what does, what is the want.

Well, I, I don't think a lot of women even know what a want feels like in their body. It's, so much of it is, and not just women, certainly men can have this experience too. So, so much of it is trying to tune into what do I want and making it okay to want that and that those are the cliffs I've jumped off.

I suddenly realized, wait a minute, I don't even wanna be in advertising. How'd I get here? And then I went to Hollywood, I and I became a producer and that was fantastic and I learned so much. But there came a day, there came a day after 10 years. and I'm working with one of the best, smartest people in Hollywood, Jodi Foster.

But there came a day I had to take her to the commissary and over hotdogs and french fries. Say, I think I'm, I think I'm done. I think I'm gonna do it. I think I've always wanted to be a writer and if, if I don't do it now I'm gonna be 80 and wonder what if, and I quit the best job in the business.

Jennifer: incredibly brave that board. Brave again.

Meg: Yeah, but it's, it literally does feel like you're jumping off a cliff.

Um, and I had a great opportunity to meet and talk with a very famous animator, Glen Kean. He did Little Mermaid. He, he's kind of like the Walt Disney of our time. And he talked about how he was trying to learn to draw a hawk taking off in flight, and he could not get it right until he realized that first the Hawk had to. before it flew, so it can feel like you're gonna jump off a cliff and fall to the rocks. But in fact, you're gonna fall. You might fall, but it's so you can catch the drift, the, the air to the next. And you know, I think sometimes people think, well, that's gonna be like in the movies and it's just gonna happen overnight.

Well, no, sometimes, no. You know, when I quit my job producing, uh, it was a. three year or more process of becoming a writer and nobody knowing who the heck I was or what I was doing, or I lost all, I lost all my chips in the business. You know, one more writer in on the pile versus running Jodi Foster's company.

Um, so it, it does, there is a cost to it, but I just realized that my very best day of producing was. My, let's put it this way. My worst day of writing was still better than my best day of producing.

Jennifer: Wow.

Meg: I, so I knew I was in the right river, right? I didn't quite know how to swim in that river. I was getting, you know, nobody knew I was in the river because they're all, you know, who are you?

You're writing what, what have you done? Um, but I still knew it was the right place.

Jennifer: So I believe you were at dinner with your husband and you were talking about, I wanna be a writer, and he just told you, so when are you gonna do it? Which from my.

Meg: a nice way of, that's a nice way of saying what he said. Um, I mean, I honestly, and quite honestly, I wasn't even brave enough to say I wanna be a writer. At that time. What I was doing was complaining about. The process of working with a writer when I just felt such a need to tell them what to do, which as a producer, you're not, that's not really your job.

Your job is to kind of dig it out of them. That's the sacred job of that mentor, producer, consultant, person. And yet I kept finding myself wanting to do it, and I was complaining about being in that space, which is basically being a shadow artist. And yet I wasn't brave enough to stand in the limelight. I wasn't brave enough to stand in front and be the creator.

I was kind of trying to work through them behind. And, um, my husband basically said, should I get off the pot, man? Like, either you go ahead and quit and become a writer and stand in the light, suffer the slings and arrows, right. Don't, don't stand behind as a shadow artist, or you can't talk about it anymore.

You can't complain about it anymore. Um, and I did. I jumped. It was crazy.

Jennifer: I wanna double click here, Meg, cuz you, we talked about a lot of women are so far figuring out what others want that we don't even know what we want. So here, you mentioned just now I wasn't brave enough to even stand in line. What was that about for you and then what was it that got you to jump off the metaphorical cliff?

Meg: well, I, I've heard it said, Sometimes it, the pain has to be so big that it can't be worse. The jumping off the cliff can't be worse than standing in that pain anymore. And if you're not standing in your authentic self, it, it can become so painful that it's, it's, I tend to find that's when people jump, right?

That's when they finally jump because it can't be worse than this. Right. Um, and also having my husband give me the loving kick in the butt and in shining the light on it for. Um, you need people, you need a community, and you need trusted people who can tell you your blind spot. I had a blind spot. Um, and so I think, I do think though, that I did ha I did have a very specific memory of sitting in my office thinking, do I wanna be 80 and not know what I could have?

Jennifer: Yeah.

Meg: Is that? Is that, do I want that? I knew I didn't want that. Sometimes the only way you know what you want is to just start thinking about what you don't want, right? If you can't figure it out what you want, because I think you can, but you're kind of not being honest with yourself. It's kind of you're pushing it down into your subconscious. Well then what don't you want? Right. And start looking at the opposite of that. Right. And I do believe I, as an, as somebody who has done this and experienced it, uh, first, the universe can dream much bigger than you can. But it, it does ask for that bravery, for that jump, and it asks for commitment and order to start dreaming that big.

I never in a million years could have imagined I was writing a Pixar movie. Never in a million, billion years. But the universe dreamed that big because every time I'm just falling my gut, falling my instinct, staying on myself as a storyteller. The other thing I will warrant anybody who's thinking about doing this, I mean, first of all, I was able to do it cause my husband was. I understand that's a real thing. That's a real thing. Um, the other thing is I have known multiple people who have talked to me about starting to, wanting to take this jump, and I've warned all of them, and it's happened to all of them. As soon as you do it, the universe will come and offer you a big red apple.

Jennifer: To go.

Meg: be the, to go back, it will be the juiciest, shiniest, glitter filled bedazzled. You can't imagine I did this. I quit and within six months, JJ Abrams himself called me. I mean, what the heck?

To come back and you know, it just took, I wrote like, Five page letter of how I would call him back and respond.

And my friend said, I think all you have to do is declare to him and the universe that you're a writer. Now, it's that simple. And now I've had friends who, that apple's come and they've taken it and it's been the best choice for them. I'm not telling you not to take the apple. That is such a personal choice, you know?

Um, if the apple comes with a lot of money and that's what your family needs, then maybe you need to take. But know that the artist part of you is still now waiting, right? Um, and needs to still be fed while you're taking that apple. But, so that's just always something that happens. Uh, I find when you make these big shifts, it, it's kind of, do you really want it?

Are you ready? Are you ready? Are you committed? Are you committed?

Jennifer: And the other thing I'm hearing as you're speaking, Meg, is your intuition. You were connected enough with your intuition and knowing that you really wanted to write even as a kid, but even as an adult, that that's really what you wanted to do. You mentioned even when you were an advertising, and I, I think it's really important to stay connected to our intuition and what we actually truly want and just practice that daily as well

Meg: Well, and remember, and for me, intuition lives in your body. It's not an analytical head thing. And there's days and many, many years of my life I lived from my, you know, neck up.

Jennifer: right. And that, to your point, has helped so many of us survive. But at the same time now, our biggest strengths can be our biggest weaknesses for sure. It's, it's in the gut.

Meg: It's in the gut, and I know that those are great characters. Just for any writers listening, where your greatest strength, the character's greatest think is actually what they have to take blinders off about. Joy's biggest strength is her ability to get back to happiness and fill people with joy, and yet what she has to realize is doing that and not allowing sadness has created this whole.

right? So yes, sometimes you're, and you're not gonna lose your greatest strength. It just has to transform into closer to what? It's a tool that you need to use in a different way now, um, for that path, for that intuitive path of why you're here now. If why you're here is to be a creator. And there's many ways to be a creator, by the way.

A producer's a creator, um, starting a company as a creator, there's many, many ways. I don't just mean fine arts or writing, but, um, if you're gonna be a creator, there's gonna be some lava, there's gonna be, there's gonna be some fire involved. And I think that, I think that that's, that's just part of it.

Jennifer: So staying, being in touch with your intuition and following that as much

Meg: Yeah. And which means getting in touch with your body right now. Does that mean take a dance class? Maybe

Jennifer: Yeah.

Meg: you know, how can you get into your body, you know, um, I worked with a, he, uh, uh, a woman once who would just be like, okay. Where? Where is that in your body? And she would make you describe it. You know, what, what's its color, what's its shape, what's its texture?

Where is it living? Is it right under your ribs? Is it behind your ear? And it's all just about helping you, uh, connect to that part of you.

Jennifer: Yeah. Beautiful. All right, Megan, I wanna talk a little bit about your expertise in writing, and for our listeners who want to be creators, maybe feeling like they are worried or scared to take the next step. Let's talk a little bit about, about the industry and space. You just said that some of your worst days writing are still better than your best days.

Being an exec, which, and you had an amazing career as an exec, so following your dream was well worth it. How would you sell writing to wanna be writers who are worried or scared to maybe leave their stable jobs to go into it?

Meg: Yeah, listen, I'm never saying to somebody leave your job because, um, money is a real thing. rent is real. Um, food is real, but that doesn't mean you can't be starting to write when you have your job. You know, I did start writing while I had my job as an exec. I, while I had my job as an exec, I took a class at Use Lake, extension on playwriting, and then another one on screenwriting and another.

On, uh, story on short stories. Um, the, the, the, for me personally, the, the scripts were the hardest because I had such a overdeveloped, highly developed, um, uh, CR judge because of my job as a producer, that was my job. Um, that I, I went to other forms to get the, uh, It's a dry riverbed, right? And you gotta get some water in the riverbed, uh, even if it's just a trickle.

Um, so for me, I did plays and I wrote a novel and that nobody will ever see and, um, I anything to creatively get that part of me moving. Um, so if you're a super, if you desperately wanna be a screenwriter, but you're, it's just too intimidating, write a short story, write a play, do anything to get that part of you, that motor running and it.

I do find that the more you do it, the more it attracts. It's kind of like a rusty faucet that you're opening and Yeah, at first listen, it's gonna be brown water that comes out. I don't care who you are, if you're just starting to write, it's gonna be rusty water that's been kind of rank in there for a while.

Um, and I find as a writer, when I don't write long enough, that same rusty feeling can start to happen. It. Like, uh, it can, it can infect the rest of your life. Um, cuz once that taps open, man, it's creativity. If you're not writing, it's going somewhere. I will say to the writers who are pretending like you're not, I bet you have really active imaginations.

I bet you are catastrophizers because it's gotta go somewhere, right? If you've been chosen to be a writer, Or an artist, you're connected, man. It's a sacred, it's a sacred, uh, job. It's a sacred thing that you've been chosen to do. So it's open and if, if you're not writing or putting it into the work, it's going somewhere.

Um, So my, I never say quit a job. I say start writing, start doing something. Um, yes, every day is ideal because the universe and your brain starts to trust that the tap will be open every day, so the, it comes quicker. But not everybody can do that, especially women. Uh, they've got a lot of stuff to do. Just do it whenever you can for as long as you can.

If it's 20 minutes, do it for 20 minutes and please lower the expectations. It's not about I'm gonna write for 20 minutes a day, and then when the Academy Award, uh, you might, I'm never gonna say never, but, Oh, you gotta, it's not about that. The goal isn't about achievement. The goal is about doing,

Jennifer: Yeah.

Meg: I often say to young writers or emerging writers, honestly, the first few years, it's about quantity. It is not about quality. I, there was a study done and a guy took a, a pottery class in college and half the students were told, your A will be based on how many pots you. The other half. He said, your A will be based on you get to make one pot, and that one pot will be your grade. And the best work came from the quantity by and large,

Jennifer: Yeah.

Meg: because it's just part of the creative process.

So start writing. Or if you wanna be a director, start shooting as much as you can. Read as much as you can. Read scripts. Like if we were a painter, we would a, you know, in the re Renaissance, you would paint like every, all the masters until you found your own voice. Um, so you need to learn your skill. You need to, and you can do that by reading.

I learned to write, honestly, because as a producer I had to read 10 scripts a. Uh, so that, that, that volume, it, it's like music. It starts to go into your body. Uh, if you love a certain genre, watch the best five of that genre. Watch the worst five of that genre, because sometimes the best five are so good you get caught up in it.

But the worst five, you're gonna learn a lot. Um, so there's a lot of Yeah, I mean, and that's why I started the podcast because I know for people who wanna jump in, it can feel overwhelming. and there can be so much doubt, but you're not alone. We all had to do it. We're all out here doing it. Ev you know, you can be me and be a pro writer, but I'm telling you, every time you start over on the new project, you're back to this feeling of that canyon opening between what you want it to be and what you feel like you can do.

So you know, the podcast really is about starting to give these kinds of.

Jennifer: So Meg, if we were to recommend a starter pack for folks who wanna get into writing, so I'm here, definitely will send folks to the podcast the screenwriting live with Meg and her co-host. Keep writing and the reps are really useful. You gotta get out the rusty water. Read the best five and bottom five of your genre.

What else would you recommend folks do in terms

Meg: Well, I would read as much as you can. I would read them and watch them and watch whatever movie or genre or thing that you think you're drawn to. And by the way, there's certain things you're like, oh, I think I love those movies. But when you go to write them, you're like, that's not me. I love them. I'm glad people are doing, that's part of the process is figuring out what it actually comes out of you.

Um, uh, I really think it's important to find your c. Um, that community might be other people leaping just like you from a job and on the at night working. Um, that community might be people ahead of you. Um, I like a mix. I like a mix of the people who are where I am. Newer people often have a lot of, um, Energy and enthusiasm.

Um, so, but community is super important. Uh, it's also why I started the podcast to help people find that community a just in a practical way, you need people to start reading your stuff and giving you feedback. It is part of the process. You cannot see your own work. You need that information is crucial in order to, uh, know what doesn't work and get inspired for what it could be.

That's a skillset in itself. So you need that community for the practical feedback, but also for the spiritual emotional support. You know, when I jumped off that cliff and quit Jodi, I had 10 people who were with me saying, do it. We believe in you, you can do it. And as I went through that three years of learning, they were there saying, keep going.

They were reading my stuff. Um, and those 10 people came to my house the morning of the academy. To send me off. To send me off. You know you need your chorus inside of your head. You already have the negative chorus. We all do. You don't need any of that. Be very careful that you're not choosing people to self sabotage.

You don't need the negative chorus outside of you and if you have it, my question is, why are they in your life? That person, um, And it might be because that survival part of you is trying to keep you small, so it's attracted in this saboteur. Um, so be careful of that. Find the positive chorus outside. Uh, it's, it, it helps.

It helps.

Jennifer: So much of it is about managing ourselves, self-management, managing our minds, and bringing in also this African proverb. If you wanna go far, go with others, go together and.

Meg: Oh, I love that. I love that.

Jennifer: it takes a village. Another thing that is helpful to me that I'll throw out is as much as we have negative voices slash saboteurs, you can also build up your positive voices.

Meaning, meaning your ally. So you may have an ally that's like a protective, a protector of you or a champion of you, or an appreciator that you can talk to more, give more voice to, to manage some of your saboteurs and call on, and then supplement that with your village around

Meg: And you can do that with the people in your life that you're pulling in. And again, that's intuition, right? Like, well, this person really has my best interest at heart. They're not competing with me. They're not trying to be better than me. They're not trying to show me how smart they are. They truly are.

That kind of, and, and that is my experience at Pixar, which is so special, is that group of people. That company really is about that kind of pure support. Um, you know, once I was in a really hard place, uh, and my friend sat me down and she clo said, she took me through a little visualization of, now imagine those people.

You can create them yourself. You, especially if you're a writer, you already have this incredible power. Start using it to help you. So she said, who's to your. And I said, of giant Viking. And, and, uh, she said, who's in front of you? And I said, oh, it's a dark witch. I said, she said, okay, but she's there to protect you.

Right? And who's to your back? Um, I can't remember, but what was funny is I couldn't fill in my left side. I could not imagine anybody there. And she said, well, that could have been the direction of the trauma. Like, who knows why. But that becomes my job to try to fill that in. And I know that sounds very LA and woowoo, but it, it's just trying to harness the imagination of the artist.

To create for you an interior, uh, support group. Um, that value you, value your stories, value what you're here for, to say value, the sacred choice that you're making. And I think that is, I think that's important.

Jennifer: Absolutely. And you making this choices has brought so many wonderful stories for us. Megan I can't tell you how many people I've told I'm gonna talk to you. And they have been so excited. So many people love your storytelling. Is it announced that Inside Out Two is coming out next year,

Meg: that's what I'm working on. Yeah, I'm working on that right now. Yeah, And it's just as hard as the first one.

if not harder, if not harder.

Jennifer: but it's gonna be so great

Meg: Uh,

Jennifer: that? do you wanna share anything?

Meg: I am not allowed. I'm

Jennifer: Okay. Okay. Too bad, but we're very excited and we'll be on the lookout. I just watched recently, my father's Dragon. Uh, great story and we're looking forward to more from you. But on this note, wanted maybe to ask you to pull back the curtain a little bit on what it's like to make a movie like Inside Out

Meg: Yeah, sure. Uh, animation's, different animation's. Kind of a combination between TV and features in that it's a feature, it takes the structure of a feature. It's three acts, but it's super collaborative. Much more about people in rooms together. Uh, inside out is Pete Doctor's baby. I came in when he was I in animation.

You, um, you do internal screen. You can do up to eight internal screenings over a five year period in which storyboard artists, they're not animating, but they're boarding the movie. And what you do is you literally walk into a theater that holds hundreds of people on the campus of Pixar, and you sit down and you watch a movie.

The. The Disney logo comes up, there's music, they've, the people, the, the voices, especially in the early times are just people around the building, uh, just people's assistants and, um, and you watch the movie and it's an incredible process to be able to do because you learn so much about what works and what doesn't.

Or, oh my gosh, this isn't even the right story. Or Oh my gosh, we have the wrong main character, or whatever. And so I came in, uh, to work with Pete when he was saying, you know, they're still saying after these screening it's a good idea, which is a very big difference from, it's a, it's a movie. He hadn't yet cracked the movie.

So that's how I came in to help him. Um, so what I would do is we would all sit in a room and myself and Pete, there was a co-director, an incredible artist, Ronnie Del Carmen. Ronnie is the one who drew and boarded the in up. The, the sequence of them going up the hill and her and her dying. He's, he's just an incredible savant.

And, uh, and, uh, Josh Cooley, who's the head of story, and we would card out the movie, and then we would have to pitch it to the, the big, uh, the big, uh, creatives in the building. At that time it was John Lasseter and Andrew Stanton. Um, and you would get through that and then you would board the movie. You'd go into the screen. And then you'd go into a brain trust and they would take it apart and tell you why it doesn't work. If you got super lucky, an idea would come up in that brain trust that people could jump on and give you some inspiration. Didn't happen all the time, but. with those big amazing brains. It would, it would usually happen.

And then, and this is the key to me, we started over and we re carded the whole movie. You never kind of went back into a draft or what you had, you would always really take it again. You would recreate it from the ground up. Um, so that's really what rewriting is, which I think a lot of writers don't understand.

They go in and they open their old document and they fix the symptoms. , but that's not the disease. The disease is down and the structure of it. So, and then we did that multiple, multiple times, um, until finally you're starting to move into animation. So it's an incredible working at Pixar and being able in animation or in any animation feature situation and being able to see the movie that many times, you know, that's why it's so good.

I mean, I'm being honest, because you get to make the movie that many times, um, and have all of those incredible brains around you to help you.

Jennifer: And I'll have folks go check out your podcast where I've heard you talk a lot more about as a writer, being able to take these notes back from executives. And I think you've talked about, first you go through, you're just like, excuse my French, but you're like, fuck you, what is this And then you go through the acceptance and then you start to rewrite from scratch.

And that is another process to

Meg: isn't, and this isn't mine. This was, um, another writer said to me, um, you know, the, the process of getting notes is, fuck you. Fuck me. . Okay. What's next?

Again, back to survival skills. It is a very strange experience to have people give you notes, be they executives or other creatives or your best friend.

It doesn't matter who it is, your husband, uh, you really feel like someone's trying to kill you and it's a very ancient part of your brain. It doesn't understand logic necessarily, cuz it, they aren't trying to kill you, but it really. Can be triggering into a survival instinct. And um, and you often do attack yourself like after a fuck you, it becomes, well, I did something wrong and

Jennifer: yeah.

it's

Meg: my fault.

Jennifer: I'm not perfect trying to destroy me.

Meg: Yeah, exactly. Aren't I perfect? And of course, perfection is the, is the enemy of creativity. But um, yeah,

it's. It's just, it's a crazy process. But that's, that's the, my husband's uh, a writer in film as well. Sometimes we work together, but he is also a painter and he just had a big show in LA and it's the same.

He has to sit there while people walk in and look at his work. And it's just like, like, why would anybody do this?

Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. It can be torturous. All right. I wanna make sure we get through a few questions, so I'm gonna get through them. I am so curious as a storyteller, who your favorite stories or storytellers are of all time.

Meg: Of all time. It's so hard cuz usually it's just kind of the next, I mean, you know, I, I would say that, uh, you know, of all times some of my favorite movies are, I love, uh, Kiki's Blue, um, Amadeus, uh, uh, out of Africa, the King speech.

Gladiator. I love Gladiator. I loved ordinary people. In terms of endearment are probably the bars that I held through most of my life in terms of storytelling.

Um, but you know, I, you know, TUI is one of my favorite movies, uh, Pixar, um, name a Pixar movie. I love them all. Um, but I would say Toy Story really was, it was, so, it wa when it came out originally it was. Amazing, amazing storytelling. It was so inspiring. Um, it's why I kind of wanted to work at Pixar and put it as my beacon because I just thought some of the best storytellers in in the world are working at Pixar.

And I had heard that they had these brain trusts where you would sit in these brains, would give you, uh, feedback. And I thought that's the most terrifying.

and yet exciting thing I can think of. And I think it's good to, to pick a beacon that maybe seems impossible, but it also seems slightly terrifying.

Um, because it means it's gonna push you, you know,

Jennifer: Yeah, and you live one life, make it scary. Make sure that your 80, 90 year old sassy self has some stories to tell.

Meg: that you experienced life. You know, somebody said to me once, and I think it's so true, sometimes you think you're afraid, but you're not. You're excited. The nervous, the, the nervous system doesn't know the difference. It's still all just firing. It's your brain that's, your brain is telling you it's fear.

Well, is it maybe it's excitement

and at least it's a little bit of both.

Jennifer: Yeah. It's like the butterflies, the upset stomach. That's a great point. Meg, what have you learned about yourself in your time in film?

Meg: Oh, so much. I think I've learned, uh, about my capacity, uh, both in terms of to be creative. You know, I think when I came into it, I thought it was a, well that had a bottom and maybe, you know, you would, when you would doubt yourself, you're like, well, I guess my wells just, you know, a little bit of water down there.

Too bad. But it's not like it is an ocean. And I have to remind myself this, what, just yesterday, that you can go back, there's more down there. It is an ocean of creativity down there. Um, it just needs your attention and, and commitment. So I think I've really learned that and about myself. I've learned, you know, what I can handle and I've learned what I like and what I don't and what I want and what I don't want, which is a, you know, really good thing to know.

It sounds so simple, but it's quite, uh, it's quite, uh, a feat. Stand up and say, I want that. And I'm still, honestly, I'm still, uh, struggling, uh, to do that. Uh, and, uh, but I look back on my life and I'm very, I'm proud of that girl who kept jumping off of cliffs.

Jennifer: Yeah, what do you want these days? On that

Meg: I think what I would like to do, I really love writing features and I'm sure I'll write more. My husband and I are talking about writing something together, which would be super fun. Um, and we have written together. Um, but for myself personally, I. I think I used to be a producer and now I'm a writer, and I can combine those in television.

I could. And what's exciting for me, beyond using both sets of my brain, both the producer, uh uh, but also the creator, is to have my own vision, you know, as a writer and features, your job is to help the director tell their story. Your job is to help the director tell their vision. And that is a sacred, amazing experience.

Of course, you're still in it. I'm Oh, I'm deeply in inside out. I was the little 11 year old girl saying to her parents, you want me to be happy, but I'm not. But it really is. It was Pete Doctor's movie and it and that, and it's great that I was able to put my shoulder under and help him. Um, but I would like to do my own.

My own story, uh, and, and storytelling and have other people help me put their shoulders, uh, under to lift it. Um, and I think TV's fun cuz you get to do more, you get to really, uh, take more points of view and perspective. So that's just what I'm thinking. We'll see. I don't know, people will see if it happens, you gotta jump, you gotta jump.

Jennifer: and that sounds exciting. On this note of it sounds simple to just know what you want and do it. That's the thing with life, right? It's simple, but it's not easy.

Meg: Listen, great art. The greatest art looks simple. Think about dance. It looks so easy what they're doing, but go ahead and try. Right. or, or, or modern art, you know, it's, it's a color field and it looks well, my kid could do that. Actually, no, actually that is the beauty of it. The way it hums and resonates and the color combination and the, and the line.

And the way the line. It's so many, so much skillset and vision into that simple painting. So, , and I'm sure for anybody doing any creation and manifesting, I mean, aren't we all like, well, of course Facebook's a thing. Like, like it just seems so simple and easy. Like no, it wasn't, it didn't exist. It wasn't even a conception.

Um, so I think that any manifestation, the highest form of it will seem simple.

Jennifer: For me manifesting the simplicity is a combination of to what we talked about, being in touch with our intuition, and then literally just putting one foot in front of the other despite all the scaredness and worries and fears, and just keep going. What is it? Is that it for you?

Anything else? ,

Meg: no. Every day. I mean, I love to have a beacon. I love to have something, even if it's a light on the water and it's just a teeny, tiny little light out there. I just, I do like to have a goal. It, I'm, I've always, since I've been a kid, been oriented towards that. I don't think you have to, if that's not your gig, but it does help me knowing that it'll shift and change, and it's okay to decide, okay, wait, I don't want that anymore.

But it helps me then know what are the steps to get there? What are the skillsets I need to get there? What are the business stuff I would need to get there? Who would I need to come with me? Um, so I do like to have a little beacon knowing that, you know, I ask people on my podcast when they're writing to do what I call a barf draft, which means at some point you just have to write whatever comes up and you can't change it.

And you can't go backwards and you can't noodle. You just have to keep plowing. because often you don't know what the beginning is until you know what the end is. And that is also ac by letting it just come out, you're accessing that deeper right brain side of you that doesn't necessarily live in your intellect.

Um, and it needs a chance to write. But barf draft, literally, it's so fun cuz on the Facebook group for the podcast, somebody will be like, um, I'm doing this barf draft thing. And it's like being, I was on a path in the woods and now I'm lost in the woods. I have no idea where we are. I have no idea. Am I going uphill down?

and I'm like, yeah, keep going. Yes, you're lost in the woods. Just keep going because I don't care how long your draft is. I don't care that most of it sucks. You will hit an end and you'll be like, oh my God, I didn't even know that that was sitting in there. And then you'll come back and now, now you're ready to outline and card.

And that's how I do it. And everybody's different. But in terms of that feeling of, yeah, you just put one front of front of the other, you're gonna sometimes feel lost. But as long as. , keeping in touch with yourself.

Jennifer: yeah.

And surrendering to the river. That sounds to me what you just described. Like this person got in the river and just surrendered and is seeing where the river takes them.

Meg: Yeah. And, and sometimes it could be pages and pages to find out one thing that you needed to know. Right. But it's so interesting. I love the brain because it's that protective part of you is won't let that. Deeper thing up. So it's writing a bunch of nonsense. And, and sometimes people would be, right, okay, this is horrible.

I don't even know. Okay, where is she going? I have no idea. Okay, well, okay, a dog walked in. I don't know why a dog walked in and all of a sudden the dog's talking and you're like, why is the dog talking? I love it. It's like you're watching a movie, but you are, why is the dog talking? What is the dog saying?

Oh my God, I didn't even know that. Oh my god. You know, um, I, again, once I had a very, um, hard time in my life and I. I let this, I tried to access this ancient part of me by, I turned out all the lights and I took a notebook I couldn't see. It was so dark, I could not see what I was writing. And I just asked it a question and just let it answer.

And it said, stay in the boat. It's hard, it's rough right now, but I want you to stay in the boat. That's all you have to do is stay in the boat. To stay in the boat. So I do believe in this, um, ancient creative part of you, um, that lives inside of you. And so much of this getting lost is actually, it's not.

It's starting to open up. It's starting to let go of all the fear and strictures and judgment and analytics in order to get to it.

Jennifer: And I've heard some people get frustrated with feeling like they're going around in circles,

Meg: Oh yeah.

Jennifer: but, but to me, something that's really helpful with that as well is think of it as a screwdriver, and this is something I heard from someone else. Think of it as a screwdriver. Maybe you're not going around in just circles, but you're getting deeper and deeper.

Meg: Yes, I've heard that as described as my friend called it the spiral, that healing and creativity is a spiral. So you may feel like you're going past the same thing, but in fact that spiral's getting tighter, you know, smaller and smaller. Um, I also think, you know, we think of these wounds as things that are wrong, but you're coming back around because there's a new, you have a new view of it.

And you need that new view. It is a part of you. Um, you know, um, I just, I, I love that part of aging to have a little bit more perspective. Um, and if you're younger and you don't have it, just I guess you have to trust your elders when we tell you that, uh, it's okay. It's okay to go to touch that soft spot and feel like if you feel like you're now, listen, there are all times in your life you are circl.

and then if it really doesn't feel like deepen your intuition, your intuitive part is saying, no, I'm in a, I'm in a circle. I'm not getting deeper. Then my question is, why? Why are you circling Now? There might be a really good reason to circle, but you might be avoiding. , there might be something deeper that you are not connecting with that is scaring the crap out of you and instead of dealing with it, you're circling.

Right? So every time, to me, it just keeps coming back to talking to yourself and being with yourself. You know, Pete doctor is a genius at this. He can just drop into it. And I watched him, you know, they, he does what I, I've heard people say, dude, ask why seven times? I'm circling. Why? Why am I circling? I have no idea why I'm circling.

I just, I am and it's making me crazy. Why is it making you crazy? Well, cuz I don't wanna deal with this. Why don't you wanna deal with it? Well, I don't wanna deal with it cuz it hurts. Why does it hurt? Because she won't let me. Blah, blah, blah. My mother just keeps Bubba. Okay. Why? Why, why does that bother you?

Well, because, and just suddenly it's gonna go woof. It's gonna be there.

Jennifer: Yeah, being there, Meg, this was lovely. I know that We

Meg: We got very, you know, therapist, psychological woowoo, but

Okay. That's, that's Mamu today.

Jennifer: and you're deep in writing and you're sharing with us all the lessons and, insights from the benefit of lots of experience and that that was perf. It was perfectly what we needed, and you were perfect as you are today for us.

Meg: Yeah, cuz listen, every business too, I just wanna say to end, you know, there are things you have to learn about your business that are just the way business works, right? Um, they, they pass because that widget doesn't fit with what they are trying to do. So there are definite things you have to learn in the business.

You and you have to learn to take notes and be a creator and be in process. So just it, it can get very loud and overwhelming. And I just, I think I'm talking about this today to remind you that in that overwhelm, in that loudness, in that chatter and chaos, there is this quiet space. There is a quiet space, and it's you.

And to keep your feet, you know, feel your feet, feel yourself on, in, on the earth and keep in touch with yourself. Let that interior be the guide. Don't place your, your value and worth outside of yourself into that business. Um, keep it, keep it with.

Jennifer: Yeah, there's that quiet, peaceful, space. And I've also heard you say that the folks who like the difference between writers and not writers, or the folks who give up, so keep

Meg: Honest to goodness it is. It is often just the people who kept going.

Jennifer: And we're so grateful that you went into writing and we're so much.

looking forward to more of your work. So best of luck for the writing process. We'll send you lots more teas and little figurines inspire you along the way, and we'll look forward to staying in touch.

Meg: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Jennifer: This was wonderful. Thank you.

Meg: You're welcome. Thank you.

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